A different slant on the ladyboy question by Werewolf
Posted by werewolf | Blog, Reader Submissions | Posted on February 19th, 2008
I’ve heard the question many times: Why does Thailand have so many ladyboys?
Known locally as “ladyboys” the Thai word is krathoey and it covers a range of people who started life as male children and somewhere along the way landed somewhere on the continuum between simply dressing in women’s frocks, to adding tits and losing their cocks.
While I can’t quote any actual statistics, I think everyone who has ever visited the Land of Smiles will agree that Thailand has far more than it’s fair share of “third gender” smiles.
Let me state once, for the record, here at the beginning of the blog, that I don’t like ladyboys. I don’t feel comfortable around them, and I have a viscerally negative reaction to them. I generally take the view that there is something deeply wrong with them.
However, I don’t plan to spend any more space foisting that point of view of you.
The fact is, Bangkok has huge numbers of ladyboys. And they are certainly not all working in the sex industry. They are entertainers, mechanics and bank managers. In the first company I worked for here in Thailand, one of our most successful sales people was a ladyboy. He was quite pretty actually. He had a small frame that was girl-sized, and had all the attributes of a nice looking woman. I suspect that many fellas turned their head when he walked by in a dress.
He approached me one day and handed me his identification card, which had a photo of a rather plain looking fellow with a crew cut. Standing in front of me he had a mischevous look on his face. I think he was under the impression that I didn’t know about his sexuality. I did. I just handed him back his ID and told him that he’d probably made the right decision.
A few months later I actually danced with him at a company Christmas party. It’s the only time I’ve ever really had any sort of ‘normal’ contact with a ladyboy.
My only point is that you will find ladyboys sprinkled throughout Thai society. I can’t really imagine a bloke in a dress selling used cars in New Jersey, or a transexual hosting a talk show in Sydney, but here it’s commonplace.
The question that is often asked on barstools, on line and at the water cooler is, “Why does Thailand have so many ladyboys?”
Thais simply seem to accept ladyboys without any real qualms. They even seem a bit puzzled as to what all the fuss is about if you ask about ladyboys. They simply are what they are… sort of ‘live and let live’ I guess.
But yesterday I was struck by a thought — my own revelation. I have formed a theory about why there are so many ladyboys in Thailand, and why Thais generally seem so unconcerned about them.
Like Christianity, Bhuddism comes in many flavors. I know a lot about Catholicism because I was raised in the Catholic Church and attended parochial school for 12 years. I was even very active as a lay minister and church volunteer throughout my university years, and in the years immediately following. But for all my familiarity with the Catholic Church, I have limited knowledge of the specific teachings and beliefs of Coptics, Greek Orthodox Church, the Methodists, Baptists or the Church of the Latter Day Saints. Hell, I don’t even know if the Mormons are Christian!
Likewise, living in Thailand has brought me into contact with a form of Buddhism known as Theravada Bhuddhism. I don’t really know how this differs from other forms of Buddhism, but I know a bit about it’s belief system. I have a book about Theravada Buddhism and I have quoted it extensively on the blog before. I’d like to pull it out now, but it’s packed in a box in anticipation of moving to my new apartment next week.
Here’s one short excerpt from Wiki:
Theravadins believe that every individual is personally responsible for their own self-realization and liberation, as they are the ones responsible for their own actions and consequences (kamma). They have to follow and practice the Noble Eightfold Path as taught by the Buddha, for self-realization and liberation. In Theravada belief, Buddhas, gods or deities are incapable of giving a human being the self-realization or lifting them from the state of repeated cycle of birth, illness, aging and death. For Theravadins, Buddha is only a Teacher of the Noble Eightfold Path, while gods or deities are still subject to anger, jealousy, hatred, vengeance, craving, greed and delusion.
What Wiki didn’t talk about is the cycle of re-birth and the Wheel of Life. Theravadin philosophy teaches that each person will be re-born again and again; and that the state of being in this life is dependant on the actions (wholesome or unwholesome) in previous lives. It is also part of the teaching that a person is not inherently male or female, and that in each life they may be born as either a man or a woman.
If you’ve never been to Thailand, it would be difficult to convey completely how pervasive Theravadin Buddhist teaching affects Thai culture. I have written before that in many ways, Theravadin Buddhism is Thai culture. They are certainly deeply intertwined. Perhaps a somewhat useful analogy would be to see the way Israeli culture is defined by religion, or the way so many Arab countries have a culture and government that is built on Islam.
My point is that these beliefs are deeply ingrained across the population, and are significant shapers of Thai culture. In other words, people’s view of the world, and the people in it, is strongly shaped by Theravadin teaching.
So, if you are a typical Thai and you see a ladyboy, what would you think? You would probably think that his state in this life is beyond his immediate control. Like you, he has been given a life based on the level achieved through all his previous lives. His actions, wholesome and unwholesome, in previous lives have led him to where he is now.
Additionally you will see a soul (a misnomer since the philosophy doesn’t identify a soul as I would normally define it) that is inherently neither male nor female. I may be crossing the bounds of accepted teaching to say that every person can be seen as both, but it is certainly accepted that each person will have lived as both man and woman in past lives.
So, you see a person who has, during his life, decided that he is more woman than man. Not a very difficult concept if you’ve been taught since childhood that you yourself have lived previous lives in both genders. You also see his situation as being the accumulation of everything he has done and experienced on the Wheel of Life — so, while his situation is of his own making across the aeons, viewed from the perspective of this life only, he is at the mercy of fate. He really has no control over who his birth into this life. All he can do is aim to be the best person possible now, aspiring to achieve higher spiritual attainment as he continues on the Wheel of Life.
The philosophy teaches that it is possible to achieve perfect enlightenment (nibbanna) in a single lifetime, though that is highly unusual. According to Theravadin teaching, the last person to achieve perfect enlightenment was Siddhattha Gotama — the man most westerners refer to as “Buddha”. He is not viewed as a God, but as a great man.
The word Buddha is actually a title. I’m not sure of the exact translation, but I would guess that it means something like “Enlightened one”. The teaching says that there will be future buddhas — people who achieve perfect enlightenment.
So, in a world where people are pre-destined to a specific life, where gender identity through the ages is not fixed, and where each person is supposed to strive, as quoted from Wiki above, for “their own self-realization and liberation” Thais are not prone to judge ladyboys in any harshly negative light. They see them as just another person striving to move forward to enlightenment in the best way he can.
This is my own theory, based on study, observation and consideration. I have not asked any Thai people what they think of this idea, and I have no real basis to believe I have stumbled across a real aspect of Thai culture. The idea came to me as an ‘aha!’ moment yesterday, and I’ve written about it today.
It’s just an idea, but I think it offers one possible explanation for the often asked question: “Why does Thailand have so many ladyboys?”
31 Responses to “A different slant on the ladyboy question by Werewolf”
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Recent Comments
Translator
Hey,Wolfy
You are right.It is apart of buddha, Which I think means life. I find many Thais have a unbelievalbe nature to accept poeple for who they are or how they behave. So, they look at the ladyboy as another soul. Many, are apart of the every day work force. This one time I was with my Number one at a Karoke bar and a cop walk in and joined this table full of gay guys. The cop was a lady boy. I knew their was something different about that table. The music they selected was totaly beyond gay. I thought I was at the LaCauge.I still had a good time and the food was great. But scarded no. Well only when I went to the john.Anyway nice article.
View all comments by Trav Man Doooooooooooo
Didnt know katoeys were allowed to be cops?
are they still referred to as the BiB in that case?
View all comments by Young Penfold
YP
WHat is a BiB. The katey in question. His dad was the owner of the bar and was a retired cop. The job part was a family thing.It does pay to know someone.I am still getting Franky R flashbacks from the LaCuage show in Vegas. Choke deee
View all comments by Trav Man Doooooooooooo
One phenomenon I find interesting is (cute) Thai gals (pros) who live with katoys. Seen that more than once. What’s up with that? Just saving on the rent?
Moreover, do Thai guys go with Katoys or are they strictly reserved for the British, Dutch and Japanese?
They do a little bit too much prancing and primping for my taste, but that may just be me. I don’t wanna’ get whiplashed by all that hair swirling around.
And where do they buy those shoes?
I have this question too. Sometimes I see young katoy (katoy apprentice?), say, guys looking (kinda’) like girls in uni uniforms. I needs ta’ know; what is their parents’ reaction to that?! I can see ‘em high-heeling out of their bedroom, bounding down the stairs, a la Nicholson as the Joker, “wait ’till they get a lode of this.”
“Son you’ve changed.”
Is this place Disneyland or what?
View all comments by Mr. Kotter
BiB = Bitches in Brown they can be referred to i guess.
I heard about quite a few thai girls living and having relationships with katoeys, but never experienced/seen this first hand.
Of all the LBs i’ve spoken too, they all say thai men dont like them. Surely they’re blowing a bit of smoke up my hoop here? For the more discerning thai guy who likes to dabble with LBs surely there is a nightspot/ area that caters for them?
View all comments by Young Penfold
You’ll find the odd Ladyboy bargirl has a scrawny Thai boyfriend.
One I’ve been with more than a couple of times finally admitted she has a boyfriend (no condoms with Thai guys of course).
But these relationships eventually have problems when the Guys family wants some offspring…
The question why are there so many Ladyboys?
I don’t think it is solely to do with ‘religion’ as mentioned by Werewolf.
I think it is also genetics?
View all comments by Jimmy Cricket
Not sure your postulation holds water? Do Sri Lanka, Burma, Laos and Cambodia, all countries where Theravada Buddhism dominates, have a lot of LB’s? No doubt Buddhism is a big part of the culture here, and thus a contributing factor to the freedom people feel in expressing themselves.
View all comments by Mark
m – my take on it is pretty simple. Thailand is the perfect petri dish for the makings of ladyboys with the Buddhism, the sex industry, and the general attitude towards life – but the discerning factor is that many of the men seem to look better as women. I don’t think that is the case with the other countries you mention. Indonesia and the Philippines also have a lot of ladyboys and those are the only other countries that have hot ladyboys besides Thailand.
View all comments by smitty
“Indonesia and the Philippines also have a lot of ladyboys and those are the only other countries that have hot ladyboys besides Thailand.”
Brazil?
View all comments by Mark
mark: Brazil has Shemales not Ladyboys. Difference? Shemales have big asses. Ladyboys have small asses but take hormones to try and get bigger asses. I am joking btw.
View all comments by pmmp
m – I was only commenting on places I have been.
india has them too but they are not even close to being hot.
View all comments by smitty
Baffles me where these thai guys go to pick up or just even meet there LBs
Surely theres some undiscovered area where thai/asian guys go to endludge in the dark side, and as soon as i find out, you guys will be the first to know.
Gonna BF my first post-op next week. Definately reader submission#2 material. After all quote smitty they are ‘fair game’
View all comments by Young Penfold
yp – Did I miss something but don’t recall seeing submission #1
View all comments by smitty
You guys are so fussy. Try spending a few years in prison
YP:….. Just come out and admit that you are only in Thailand for the LB’s?!
View all comments by Daywalker
@Daywalker, what can i say, im a raging shirtlifting-sexpat with a bloodlust for men in skirts. If you happen to see a guy in his early twenties trawling sukhumvit road with a sigha vest, sandals, a walking stick and dark glasses please come and say hi.
@Smitty, all in good time, they’re gonna be like buses. None for ages then 2 come along together. You want pictures of the post-op?
View all comments by Young Penfold
I didn’t mean to rag on Werewolf. After all at he spent some time thinking about this and presented an interesting argument. It is heaps better than the usual “hormones in chicken” or poor farmers paid to give their effeminate son into some sort of government-sponsored project. Next up: crop circles in rice paddies lead to increased numbers of LB’s in Isaan. Maybe I’m speaking out of school but Thai males are generally more open to spur of the moment same-sex sex than westerners. Thai males, again generally speaking, are quite fond of LB’s (and shagging them), and they don’t have to go too far to indulge.
I’m not a post-op fan but I did notice four attractive ones at Midnight Bar on Soi Cowboy. Recollect #’s 40, 44, 48 (missed the 4th number but possibly in the forties?). Just look for the best boobs. Tons o post-ops in NEP and Kings Corner (Patpong).
View all comments by Mark
Nice piece WW. I’d be more convinced though if you find a Theravada Buddhist and get a first-hand understanding of his beliefs. As it stands the cutie TG is only an LB in waiting and how would they justify defying their religion by denying their LB designation by snipping off their little winkies only to gain a pretend twat to fool us innocent tourists?
I think we need to understand “enlightenment”.
YP – Sorry mate but I have now struck off sandal wearers from casual acquaintances.
View all comments by RJ
interesting piece, thanks for writing, WW.
from what i understand, other countries including Pakistan accept the “third sex” principle. i’m not an expert on the subject but it seems that some cultures are not averse to cross-gender behavior ranging from cross-dressing all the way up to full surgery. the most thorough cinematic explanation i’ve seen is in the 1984 “Mondo”-style documentary SHOCKING ASIA (1984). it goes through an area with transvestite sex-workers, then interviews one who wants to have The Operation. they interview the surgeon, an ethnic-Indian Singaporean.
and then, they show you The Surgery. yes they do. i got it on DVD on 4th floor MBK a few years back, 99 baht. it’s a great way to get that last persistent party guest to leave (“hey man, watch THIS!”).
just my 2 cents, but i do think there are people who genuinely feel they were born the wrong gender, and it seems that most of them are males wanting to be female, and this seems to bother some men deeply (no one went batso when Marlene Dietrich went around wearing mens’ suits in the 30s). in Japan, gender-flipping has been a strong component in pop culture since at least the 1960s, especially in the rock music. it’s not considered unusual to use clothes/makeup to appear 100% female if you’re a Japanese media personality. the 1968 high glam/crime caper film KURO TOKAGE (BLACK LIZARD, http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0063203/) starred Akihiro Miwa, a man whose entire career was spent in drag.
it has a higher visibility-quotient in Thailand, thanks in part to the sex industry, but as you pointed out, katoeys are found in all lines of work, and all over the country. i remember a cafeteria-stop during a long bus-ride years back and the cashier at the Nowheresville cafeteria collecting 25 baht for a plate of rice with curry was flamingly katoey. but the strangest was when i spent about a week decompressing from my year in Tokyo on Koh Tao in southern Thailand, at a guesthouse/dive shop (i ended up getting my advanced open-water PADI license *and* saw a whale shark up close, good trip). the guy running the place was constantly touching up his hair and applying lipstick/nail polish. the problem: he was a big beefy Thai guy, his lipstick was perennially smeared and he had this big braying voice. you’d be sitting by the sea drinking coffee at 7:00AM and this guy, looking more like a linebacker with stained pink cheeks than anything else, would bray at you: “sawatdii KHAA!!”
JtB
View all comments by Jack the Bat
Books have been written on this subject…
http://www.amazon.com/Third-Sex-Kathoey-Thailands-Ladyboys/dp/0285636685
View all comments by Combover
yp – only pictures if the girl is okay with it.
View all comments by smitty
You know what I think.
I think ladyboys are such a popular topic because deep down many of us are looking for approval from other guys that its not gay to bone a ladyboy.
I have done it once by accident.(yes a crying game moment) But I do eye hump the hell out of them. My attraction is not because of the package its the woman I see when I look at him/her.
When talking to a ladyboy I always feel and behave the same as if I was taking to a women. I have no problem with gay people so if it was gay to shag ladyboys I wouldnt care one way or the other but my view is its not a gay or bi thing to do.
View all comments by yesman
But then again if I dress up in long hair and make up, high heels that does not make me a women.
View all comments by yesman
Opinions differ a lot…
In my book, if you are a bloke, and shag another bloke (even if he is wearing a wig and lipstick) up the arse, then you are a poof.
View all comments by Daywalker
Thailand has a lot of ladyboys because their parents raise them to be that way. Pure and simple.
Many of their parents want to have a daughter because for Thais they view children as people to take care of them…..especially when they are older.
Ask Thais why they have children and they say “who will look after you when you are old (kae)?”
Daughters take care of the parents so if Thais have a son they raise them to be like a daughter.
That’s also why no one complains about katoeys. If you want them how can you complain about them?
View all comments by Jungle Bunny
Living in Pattaya, I have seen and met a bunch of Ladyboys. I have often wondered the same thing….WHY DO Many? I have a Longtime GF and she gets angry when I check one out. Fact is that some Ladyboys in Thailand are stunning (There are also some Butt Ugly Ones). I dont think many guys would choose a ladyboy over a woman for a girlfreind but I know that many (although they will deny it) enjoy having sex with them. After living in Thailand for 6 years, My views have changed alot. The few that I personally know, are interesting to talk to, speak perfect english, and behave mostly like women. I have also heard of the ones who Rob and beat up drunk Falangs. I have opened my mind about these Lovely Freaks of Nature and accept them as human beings. I would never be seen publicly walking with one (unless I was REALLY FUCKED UP) but understand why some Falangs find them attractive. I personally find them Fascinating and think they spice up living here in Pattaya, Thailand.
I give them THUMBS UP for pulling the whole TS thing off.
View all comments by Kuka
i am love lady boy
pic send me
View all comments by hessam
Excellent post, Daywalker!
View all comments by Pants Elk
It’s heart warming to see that my blogs continue to attract thoughtful comments even after so many months… the classics never die.
View all comments by Werewolf
Hmmm. For a self-confessed Katoeyphobe you seem to enjoy writing about them quite a bit … not that I’m suggesting anything, you understand. I leave the facile faux-psychological interpretation that would suggest to some that your interest/revulsion in the subject reveals a deep unease about your own sexuality to Dan Brown fans. Incidentally, Werey, I glide through BKK around December number 10, and hope we can growl threateningly at each other over a foaming stoup of mead at the Brothers Mango?
View all comments by Pants Elk
Why Panties! I thought you’d never ask.
A little bell is ringing in the back of my brain saying that 10 Dec is an important date in Thailand that might cause a bar to be closed.
Am I confused? (I frequently am)
Alternately, are you here for more than just wantee sip?
View all comments by Werewolf